Curse

Xenomortis · Aug 11, 2009, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chieftain Heavyhand

It isn't that I'm asking to turn lines into copies of other lines. I am asking that skills that already do AoE damage have their cap increased to hit a few more additional foes...

Unless you and Phoenix Tears are the same person, I was not responding to you. Pay attention.

Chieftain Heavyhand · Aug 11, 2009, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Unless you and Phoenix Tears are the same person, I was not responding to you. Pay attention.

Maybe not but I have been accused of trying to make everything the same by others so I thought I should address this.

I disagree whit what Phoenix is saying as well. I am not asking for new skills so each line can do things like the other lines do I am asking to take a few skills that already exist and do AoE damage but have been limited to certain numbers of foes be buffed so they hit a few more foes, with the exception of Orb, which I have repeatedly stated isn't something that is a must. What I am asking for is that skills that hit multiple foes have their numbers increased and that one of these skills which has a req that ties it to another (Arc Lightning) attribute line (Water), have that req removed.

Bobby2 · Aug 11, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Ubar Shock Air Magic, Elite Spell: 5e, 1/4s cast, 5s recharge.

Target foe and all foes in the area are struck for 500...1200 Lightning damage and are knocked down for 2...5 seconds.

Who gives a fk it's PvE... right?

Mad Lord of Milk · Aug 12, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Air Magic is meant for single-target spiking, Fire Magic for multi. Leave it that way.

Jeydra · Aug 12, 2009, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

Hmmm. I think there is something wrong... I used a pvp fire built taken from some HA in pve and I was clearing the areas even without a single pve skill. It was hard to see enemies due to amount of yellow numbers popping on the screen. I tried running various air builds and it utterly sucked even with pve skills. I guess Air is only really usable in pvp and probably will stay that way. I guess that is the point of OP to make Air more viable for pve. I guess since pvp should not be affected his suggestions should be pve only.

Were you in normal mode? If you were, then Fire is great, but I assume HM since so many things work in NM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chieftain Heavyhand

What I am asking for isn't some kind of copy of another line it is to give more options to PvE casters to do something besides run fire builds to do AoE damage. Looking at the lines there are cross overs in each one Earth and Water snare and protect, Fire does AoE as well as has a few nice spike skills, Air has spike damage and a few AoE skills which I think need buffed to be more viable in PvE.

You're missing the point ...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10381487

Air Magic is already more viable than Fire Magic in HM, except in a few select areas. PvE casters already should not be running Fire builds to do AoE damage. Air Magic could use a buff because overall the entire Elementalist profession needs buffing to be comparable at dealing damage, not because Fire Magic owns and Air Magic sucks and Air needs a buff to be comparable - that is plain confusing up and down.

draxynnic · Aug 12, 2009, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chieftain Heavyhand

As for skill split most builds only split into three attribute lines and for Els you need one into the damage, snare or protection, one into E-storage and one into some sort of energy management which is usually Sin or Mes. If you bring a rez from the monk line then you bust up your points into 2 lines and what is left over into the rez line. When you start trying to go into 4 you really start reducing your effectiveness in all of the skill lines you are trying to use.

Elementalists have possibly the second-best energy management in the game. Auspicious Incantation with 25-energy spells is decent, but I expect there are still more Mesmers subbing into Elementalist for GOLE than Elementalists subbing into Mesmer for energy-management. And the energy-management aspect of Assassin's Promise, while useful, isn't the reason it's used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

I defend me against this "WoW-Club" stuff U've written...that may you write maybe for people, which proclaim themself as WoW-Fans and also play WoW hell alot of time and even say in forums like this here, that they find WoW better than GW...but not for people like me, who never have played a single second WoW, never have written in Forums, that they find WoW better, and never have compared WoW with GW - how when I've never played WoW...

My ideas come from total other games that inspire me, mostly offline rpgs
I personally would call myself when then a Member of "Let GW2 become a great MMORPG that kicks WoW painful into the nuts and lets Aion look very old"-Club

And you all know, that GW2 will become alot more in kind of gameplay like WoW, that it will be more of a classic MMORPG

This is exactly the problem. Your inspirations seems to be, well, basically every cliche that exists in RPGs, but to a number of people, including myself, part of the charm of Guild Wars is that it breaks those cliches. It breaks the cliche that says you have to spend ten thousand hours to fully develop your character and collect the Infinity Plus One Sword to keep up with other players. It breaks the cliche that says players should be segregated by level and/or the quality of their equipment.

For us, the steps Guild Wars has already taken in the form of grindy titles and so on is a tragedy.

WoW may not be your actual inspiration, but when you say that "(GW2) will be more of a classic MMORPG, I read "(GW2) will be yet another classic MMORPG". Make it just like everything else and it will no longer be unique... not to mention being forced directly into the ring with the 1000-pound gorilla that is WoW... or its successor. Now, maybe if GW2 went in that direction it could beat WoW or its sequel, but the safe money is that it won't... and win or lose, I and people like me won't be onboard.

Although I don't know what we'll be playing instead. After all, their are plenty of classic MMORPGs on the market to choose from, but not so many for people for whom doing the same thing with bigger numbers doesn't provide much of a carrot for putting up with grind.

In short... you don't need to be a WoW fan, or to have even played it, to be part of the make-GW2-subscription-free-WoW club. You just need to be one of the people who wants to strip away everything that makes Guild Wars unique and replace it with the cliches of classic MMORPGs.

MithranArkanere · Aug 12, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

That ^

Fire = Nukes
Air = Spikes
Water = Snares/hexes
Earth = Defense

If Everything = Nukes, eles would be bland and have no versatality.

Actually:

Fire - Breaks enemy formations (not many monstesr will stay put inside AoEs, and even less in PvE)
Air - Nullifies (Blindness, dazing, weakness, cracked armor, knockdowns...)
Water - Snares
Earth - Protects

And ALL spike.
Air has armor penetration but that isn't all that is needed to spike, it just helps with enemies with more armor.

Arduin · Aug 12, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Well, if I see an ele with a fire staff and a Factions fire aura, I'd guess they were a fire nuker of some sort, mabye even Mind Blast. Not sure what else they'd be.

If using a fire staff, and if using and displaying the aura, because there are also generic staffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with eles just maxing energy storage and an element of choice... the same way you handle warriors...you just either max tactics or strength and 1 weapon style of choice, more attribute don't need to be raised for a warrior ...

I think there is indeed something wrong when an ele could just max energy storage and one element, and is able to fulfill all roles that are now divided between the different elements. If you could do all this with only one attribute line, why would you need 3 other elements?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

same with ranger...you raise either only marksmanship and expertise or beast mastery and expertise or wilderness survival and expertise...only with the difference that you do this with the other classes for playing certain builds, but as said..the Elementalist is GW's universal Allrounder Class, or this should it be anyway, because as said, every element can be used for the same purpose. There's no rule, that says that fire spells can't be defensive or that you can't hex with a certain element and so on...

No, this is what OP is suggesting, not what the game is nowadays. As far as I know fire was for nuking, water for snaring and such, and Anet intended it that way, although a lot of these roles are kinda blurred, I give you that.

And as far as I know the ranger is the Jack of All Trades, yet you nicely show me a ranger does need to spec into different attributes to fulfill a certain role. Shouldn't the ranger be able to interrupt, degen, pressure, have a pet and survive using only expertise and any given other attribute?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

I'd like to know from you, what you think about the game, what would all change, if players could play with their Eles all the same tactical styles with all of the 4 elements.?

It would be boring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

Yet you argued only, that peole would start just to specialize their eles on 2 attributes...thats nothign wrong, because all people already do that to be able to play an effective ele and not a wannabe, that uses all elements at the same time, but is cause of the attribute split not very good at any element of them compared to an ele, who has just 2 maxed attributes and is specialized on 1 element

If I read you correctly, you are saying an ele that spreads it's points between more attributes and thereby tries to fulfill multiples roles, are not as strong as an ele that specializes in 1 attribute line nowadays. Which is true, and fine by me, because you spec to fulfill a certain role in your team, be it DPS, snaring...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

Does it really care you, if you got now snared by an fire spell, or by an water spell, are you really one of those superficialy person, who cares of what element was used against u, when the most simple fact there is to care for in the moment is just only, that you got snared ... with which element is totally regardless.

Circling back to the identification of an ele by it's weapons and such, if you could fulfill all roles with any given element, it wouldn't matter anymore what element that ele is specced in, or what he is wearing, because every ele would be able to do everything. So there's nothing to identify about that ele anymore. If you see a fire ele nowadays, you know you are going to get hit with big damage, just like you know when you see a hammer warrior you know you are going te be knockdowned bigtime.

If an ele would be able to fulfill all roles with only fire magic, opponents wouldn't be able anymore to identify the ele by it's element, and those opponents would be at a disadvantage, because that ele can see what the hammer warrior's role is going to be.

And countering:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

are you really one of those superficialy person, who cares of what element was used against u

Are you really one of those superficially persons who cares what element you are using against a foe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

But would be all tactical ways playable for all elements, the player would receive a much bigger variety of builds for eles and as said, players could choice then their most beloved play style with their most beloved element.

players would be then anymore forced to play a fire ele, just to be counted as nuker...not anymore air, just to be counted as spiker and so on.

There is already enough variety in the builds of an ele. You just need to properly spec instead of putting all points in fire and expecting to fulfill every possible role there is.

Also, why would you 'love' an element? If you want to do big damage, you go fire. If you want to snare, go ice. Why would you want to use fire balls to snare someone? Because of the visual effects? I'd say one would love the element because of the kind of gameplay it enables you to, not because people think Air Magic is pretty.

EDIT: I hope I didn't start a quotewar here

Xenomortis · Aug 12, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

If using a fire staff, and if using and displaying the aura, because there are also generic staffs.

Eh?
I wasn't really being serious. Although my conclusion would probably be correct, I'm not really suggesting you try it out as a method for pre-empting an ele's specced element and there isn't much point in doing so.

Phoenix Tears · Aug 13, 2009, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Rangers and the other classes are simply not able to fullfill all their roles with just one Attribute, thats all...

A Warrior can't be aggressive and defensive at the same time and wield 3 Weapons and the same time where one is a 2H Weapon ...but this point just brings me back on the hope, that Warrios will hopefully be able in GW to dual wield 1H Swords/Axes as like too 2H Swords/Axes ..sigh

A Ranger can't control simply control pets per traps lol nor doesn#t wilderness survival let you control pets

Its just just mere realism, that makes the difference between physical classes, that rely alot more on realism, than magical classes, which are pure fantasy and could hadle cause of that everything just with 1 of their attributes...

With enough fantasy you can think you out for all of the elementalist spells of each attribute, which will work either as AoE Spell, hex, Snare, Spike or Defense.

if all elementalists could fullfill all roles, it wouldn't be boring, it would be alot more interesting in PvP because thats the point then - you wouldn't be able anymore to tell from just looks, how an ele player will play his chara...

If you see an Ele in Fire Armor, you wouldn't be able to guess, if in the next few seconds will hit you a load of fire hexes, a barrage of fire spikes, some big area fire spells or somethign that tries to snare you..of if you get surprised by an fire ele, that just lets you run to him to melee range, just to counter your attacks with some fire defenses ...

this would require then from the player alot more of gamign skills to be able to react on any kind of ele at each time, regardless of the point what for a kind of ele you'll meet in battle...

its a much better prove for beign a good player, if you can show in battle, that you're prepared for any kind of elemental role a player could choose from any of the four elements, than if you beat your enemy just because you could know its play style from far away, because elements are fixed to certain play styles and nothign else

this is really boring.. if you fight ever and ever again agaisnt the same fire eles, which can be all only nukers.. if gameplay is too much fixed on classes being able to play with certain attributes only certain single roles, then this is really boring over time, but if you'll never know on what kind of ele you'll meet in your next battle, then fights will be ever interesting, because you could't tell then, if your next ele foe is maybe an Ice spiker, or an Earth Snarer or an Fire Hexer or an Air Ele with defensive Counters or if you'll meet maybe in TA on a group of 4 eles which are all four different AoE'rs what I personally would really find funny to meet on such a group in TA - Elemental Quartett XD

Quote:

If I read you correctly, you are saying an ele that spreads it's points between more attributes and thereby tries to fulfill multiples roles, are not as strong as an ele that specializes in 1 attribute line nowadays. Which is true, and fine by me, because you spec to fulfill a certain role in your team, be it DPS, snaring...

Yes, that was meant right so...
---------

What you all forget is, it is not the attributes, which would allow the player to fullfill then all the roles, it would be the chosen SKILLS in the Skill Bar...
So if you would go and play a Defense Ele Build based for the Fire Element for example, you won't be able to fullfull with that build also Hex Spam, Snarign and Attacking at the same tiem,

1. because of the Skill Bar limit of 8

2. you also need for an effective build a good Energy management as Ele, what will alone eat some some skill slots of the 8

what means if you want to play a good Fire DefenseEle then, you must use then all left free slots for fire defense spells, letting no free space open for any attack spells (aoe/spike), nor hexes or snares, if you really want to fullfill the role as defensive Fire Ele just for example:

8 Skills open, just an example build:

- Magma Skin (E) (imaginary Elite Fire Defense Spell)
- Ward against Heat (imaginary Fire Defense Spell)
- Flame Djinn's Haste (Fire Buff with some Damage Effect)
- Flame Barrier (Imaginary Fire Defense Spell)
- Fire Armor (Imaginary Fire Defense Spell)
- Glyph of lesser Energy (E-manament)
- Fire Attunement (E-management)
- Res Signet/ Hard Res Skill of other Class (Standard)

So would for example look like a defensive Fire Ele maybe, its just 5 Skills that would be left, if you care for E-Management...
If you get those 2 Skill out, cause a Necro bips you for example, this would nable the player just either to:

1. empower the defensive build with 2 more defense spells or

2. replace the 2 spaces with some damage fire spells to take on a bit a second role with your chosen element, but stil you would not be able to fullfil all roles at the same time just with 1 element ...

the absolute identical example you can make with this, if you replace now the Fire Element with any other of the other 3...

crazybanshee · Aug 13, 2009, 03:33 AM // 03:33

I'm not gonna keep beating the dead horse, but each line has their strengths, in ele and everything else. My main char is an ele, and I would hate like hell for something like this to happen.

Arduin · Aug 13, 2009, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

Rangers and the other classes are simply not able to fullfill all their roles with just one Attribute, thats all... <snip>

I would support his suggestion if other Professions would be enabled to fulfill multiple/all possible roles with only one attribute too. The way it stands now, for me, it wouldn't be fair for the other professions if an ele would be able to fulfill every role when only speccing in one attribute.

On the other hand, maybe it is indeed more fun to not being able to know the exact same role from that ele when you encounter one, just by looking at it's equipment or the first skill they use. Makes you be on your toes, looking for other signs how this particular ele van be dangerous. But again, that ele can know all this already by looking at his foe (like the hammer-wielding warrior), so it would again make an unfair fight. Give all the other Professions to possibility to do everything too, and it's a fair deal. (although I prefer the character of specialization a lot more than being able to do anything, anytime).

In the end, is this a suggestion to enable the ele to be the perfect allrounder, by not forcing an ele to dilute his attribute points over multiple attributes, or a suggestion to enable people to roll an ele with any attribute they fancy and still be able to do everything an ele is possibly able to ?

If the first, I still am not in favor of this suggestion. Jack of all Trades, Master of None. If you want to be able to fulfill multiple roles, don't expect you will excel in all of them at the same time. Work with your team, so you can specialize in one or two roles, and exploit those to the fullest.

If the second, I am still not getting why people would want to nuke with Air, or snare with Fire. Anet could then just merge all elemental attributes, basically for an ele to have only Energy Storage and Elemental Power, with a modifier that let's you choose if you want to have Red Fire, Blue Ice, White Wind and Brown Earth visuals to accompany your spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

8 Skills open, just an example build:

- Magma Skin (E) (imaginary Elite Fire Defense Spell)
- Ward against Heat (imaginary Fire Defense Spell)
- Flame Djinn's Haste (Fire Buff with some Damage Effect)
- Flame Barrier (Imaginary Fire Defense Spell)
- Fire Armor (Imaginary Fire Defense Spell)
- Glyph of lesser Energy (E-manament)
- Fire Attunement (E-management)
- Res Signet/ Hard Res Skill of other Class (Standard)

the absolute identical example you can make with this, if you replace now the Fire Element with any other of the other 3...

What would be the point? Why not specc for Earth Magic?

Phoenix Tears · Aug 13, 2009, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

If the second, I am still not getting why people would want to nuke with Air, or snare with Fire. Anet could then just merge all elemental attributes, basically for an ele to have only Energy Storage and Elemental Power, with a modifier that let's you choose if you want to have Red Fire, Blue Ice, White Wind and Brown Earth visuals to accompany your spells.

Its the second point: Why?

- because of the fun

- because of the looks

- because people maybe would like more to nuke with air, than with fire, because nothing tells the player, that the player wouldn't theoretically be able to nuke not with air too.

- because as already said, anet already blurred the elements and their roles so much, that it wouldn't make any big difference anymore

- because it would allow the players to create tons of new ele builds, where surely will be then also tons of very interesting ones then under them

- because it would make the Elementalist become the true Jack of all Trades this Class should have been from the begin on imo. The Ranger is no real JoaT, only because he has 3 so very different kinds of play styles.

As you self say it, with these changes, the Ele would become the ultimate Allrounder and thats imo the purpose of this class beign an Allrounder ...of all classes I've played, the Ele is really the most easiest one to play in regard of its Gameplay (ok, monk is same as easy, but only because u never have in the game to worry to receive not an important healing in a very dangerous situation XD

)
But what i want to say with that is, that a very good Allrounder Class is shown by its most easiest gameplay and that this class has the ability to play with its different features all roles that are designed for the class... from all classes in GW, the Elementalist is the only Class, that fits to the role as the perfect Allrounder, because its with enough imagination for creating skills the only Class, where you can easily create skills for all of the class' attributes which could be used for any role of the class

Fire Armor, Frost armor, Earth Armor, Air Armor < most easiest example for this...

4 different skills... all for the same purpose of being a skill for a defensive build, but all 4 skills could easily have some slightly differences:

Fire Armor:
Gives + 10-30 Armor against physical Attacks and whenever you get attacked by a Foe in melee range, the foe will start burnign for 1-2 Seconds, if the attack was fire based, the attack will get absorbed and you'll receive 0 Damage.

Earth Armor:
Gives + 15-40 Armor against physical Attacks, reduces your movement speed by 15%, but makes you also invulnerable against critical hits and earth based attacks wil lget absorbed, so that you'l receive 0 Damage from them.

Ice Armor:
Gives +10-30 Armor against physical Attacks and absorbs 1-3 Energy from foes, that attack you, while this enchant is on you. Also ice based Attacks will get absorbed so that you receive 0 Damage.

Air Armor:
Gives +10-30 Armor against physical Attacks, increases chance to evade physical ranged attacks from arrows by 33% and lets you recharge Skills 1 second faster.
Also Air based Attacks get absorbed so that you will receive only 0 Damage from them.

This were just 4 imaginary examples, but so like these examples could be made then all other spells too, so that all elements just are able to play all the roles, but just only similar..not exactly the same way ^^

MisterB · Aug 13, 2009, 11:01 PM // 23:01

All attributes in the game have a general theme. Their differences makes them interesting, and blending them would be bland and boring to me.

Owik Gall · Aug 13, 2009, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Note when Anet nerfed Rodgart's Invocation and let's look at the OP's skill suggestion.

Anet nerfed Rodgart's to decrease spamability of high damaging AoE skills that would result into continous AoE spiking. Now, combine all of the OP's suggested skills together. Wouldn't they all seem close, if not exactly like the way Rodgart's Invocation worked before its nerf?

Think about it...

If Anet nerfed Rodgart's due to AoE spike spamming, then what will they think about these skill suggestions?

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 13, 2009, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Air Magic Nuker is an oxymoron.

sage, /notsigned, etc.

superraptors · Aug 14, 2009, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Lightning Hammer (25E 2C 4R)

Current:
Spell. Target foe is struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage. Lightning Hammer has 25% armor penetration.

Change:
Spell. Target foe is struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage and causes knockdown if it hits. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

knock down will suit it more^^

zelgadissan · Aug 14, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

Lightning Hammer (25E 2C 4R)

Change:
Spell. Target foe is struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage and causes knockdown if it hits. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

A spell that hits that hard and causes knockdown cannot possibly have a 4 second recharge, especially when you get 21e back with dual attunement.

Edit: Stoning is similar to that but requires a pre-requisite of Weakness. If there was a clause for knockdown, maybe.

Arduin · Aug 14, 2009, 12:36 PM // 12:36

I get your examples of the 4 different kinds of armors, Phoenix Tears. Same kan be done for a high damage attack skill, or a running skill. But still, I'd like my ele to need to specialize in one element to be able to play that certain role effectivily. This is just personal preference however, and the it's the way I've played Guild Wars for the past years.

However, If I remember correctly, Anet is making the skill system in GW2 a bit differently. More context dependent skills, as in, a single skill can have multiple effects in different situations. Who knows, your and OP's idea's might see the light of day in GW2

Leather Square · Aug 16, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Besides the argument Air is for spikes and Fire is for nuking you could throw in a skill called Tornado that strikes multiple opponents.